need some help from you guys

[roy mawbey]

Guys,
I have been experiencing a slow turning starter when hot all okay when cold.

I last removed my starter around 7 years ago and managed with some grief to insert a new starter bushing in the bell housing.At that time I again had slow cranking when hot. Previous to that 30 odd years ago I removed the starter when I removed my engine to look at the brushes.
I never got the cap off after removing the 2 screws didn't realise then the cap had sealant on it. I didn't even know there is a rubber ring to protect against water for that cap.

So, last time so sure it was the starter bushing again I didn't remove the cap.

So.. I had the correct spanner to get the top long engine bolt nut off and after removing all the starter wires and lower stud nut I got it off. I found the wire to the ignition very bad. I cut it back and resoldered the wire clamp. I cleaned the other battery connections to the starter and this time removed the end cap. The brushes, springs and comutator looked fine. Cleaned the area removing the dust.

NOW THE PROBLEM

The top 5" approx long bolt is so difficult to get back into the bell housing!! I got the short stud nut on no problem but there is no room to get the long one in and through the casting. I removed the engine tin behind the fan housing still can't reach. Tried to push it through the starter flange but it just fall out. I did it 7 years ago but how??? Do you pull the starter just off the bottom stud and revolve the starter motor anti-clock to see the top hole and try that way??? I ache I don't have a hoist. I am fed up too!!

What's the procedure. I need your help please.

Roy

[JTR70]

Wish I could help Roy "paging Dr. Staggs or Doctor Baker"... Hope they see this. Justin

[Jack Staggs]

Roy, the easiest way is to put the upper long bolt through the starter BEFORE you offer the starter to the transmission. Don't allow the bolt to slip back more than an inch as you slide the starter home.

[roy mawbey]

Jack,

Thanks very much for your reply.That motor is very heavy to lift in place whilst on your back under the car. I intend to try today to retract it off the bottom flange stud and try to enter the bolt in an horizontal position through the flange to line up with the hole in transmission bell housing. I also seem to remember working my hand over the transmission from the other left hand side of the car. Someone else mentioned that I think.

My the way just for Justin and others who have replaced all the sheet metal on the underneath at the back, I had to undo the clips that hold the wiring loom in place. The loom got in the way when trying to remove and replace the starter. Have you guys welded on the clips for the loom routing?? Need to be in the right place those clips!

I will endure some more torture today and will report back. This problem is as bad as my PC browser problem looks very much like I will have to upgrade to windows 8 because of no microsoft XP back up anymore. I cannot open attachments frustrating as I will have to have computer guys to help. The AOL guy just said sorry tried my best can't help you

Roy

[MMW]

Yes you need to put the bolt in the starter before seating it onto the bell housing. I put the starter up into place almost & then insert the bolt, then seat it to the bell housing. One trick I have seen is to use some plumbers putty to hold the bolt from falling out while pushing the starter up from underneath. If you have it jacked up, let the rear suspension hang as this gives it some more room. Lastly add something to the bolt head to keep it from spinning while tightening. I drilled & installed a roll pin.

While under there check & clean the ground strap from the body to the trans. Also the "wire" that comes out of the starter body to solenoid connection.

[JR]

Roy,
Good luck with the starter.
At least my PC is now back from the shop and working even thought I have to go to Task Manager each time I start up.
There is a .exe that is soaking up the memory.
I'll send you the procedure directly the PC shop gave me.
If you can't get the starter bolted in I'll take it ot Chris at the shop on Monday and get his opinion.
Cheers,
Dick

[roy mawbey]

Mic,

Thank you for the tip about the plumbers stuff. I have some playdo or plastacene the grand kids have used. Thats a good idea, I am sure it would not fall out of the flange using that and I can pull it off easily.
I have also borrowed from my neighbour a higher lift trolley jack so I have a bit more room. Will attempt it over the weekend.
Dick,
Had a free!! 15 minute talk to a computer specialist repair guy about my XP error message now of course non-supported by microsoft. Yes, he could put the latest Windows 8.11 on it but advised against it. My 7 year old system runs a lower bit size and he knows I would never be happy if he did that. The problems he says for XP users are immense especially for companies with large numbers of PC's running it.

His free advice: take copies of everything you can and either let it get covered in dust in the office or throw it away. So for me who like trying to repair everything myself down to the kitchen kettle I have to dig deep and try not to cry.

Roy

[roy mawbey]

Just to say my computer is now working properly. The AOL help line guy who told me for certain it was not their problem but Microsoft XP proved to be wrong. I had a message on screen saying new updated software for AOL was being loaded. Told me to turn off AOL which I did and then after several minutes advised ' success new software loaded'

I then tried a known site for the error message. It now works okay!!

I will find it hard to trust an on line help in the future.
But I am happy

The job to get the starter motor is planned for Sunday wish me luck

Roy

[JTR70]

Great News Roy! You're slowly getting knocking out these little chores. Best of luck with the starter motor this weekend! Justin

[JR]

All and Roy,
I hope that your starter project is going better than my desk top PC issues.
It has to go back to the shop tomorrow!
SO I am finishing up the Roadster door panels.
I am waiting for the Contact cement to set before I start putting the driver's garnish rail together.
Then its done!

Doesn't look bad and much better than the old ones!
Dick

[roy mawbey]

Guys,

Just a short reply did take some photos for later. Got the starter in the tip from Mic and Jack was helpful. I put a dab of ' blue tack' a play dough type putty that sort of sticks to anything but without glue on the top and had the bolt sticking out the flange by 45mm.

This worked so the bolt was about 30mm into the trans casing. I then had to go to the left side of the car and get my hand over the transmission to find the bolt head and push it through.

The idea of the roll pin in the bolt head is great Mic but the problem I found was the bolt moved back into the casing every time I tried to put the nut and washer on behind the fan housing.
Lucky me one of my sons came over I held the bolt head he put the nut on.

Some tips, open up the wiring loom clips and move the loom out of position to allow more room fro extracting the starter.

I measured the pilot shaft diameter and it was only 0.001" down on size from nominal 0.490" The bushing is only 4K miles old.

Hope to start it soon.

Roy

[356JAGER]

Roy,
Ab Tiedeman makes and sells the bolts with the roll pins. Another
solution that I use on my 912 is replacing the bolt with an allen head of the same length. The allen wrench can be positioned for capture to keep the bolt from backing out and rotating. Another method I use to keep bolts in place to start a remote nut is to clean the area and bolt with acetone and then use a bit of super glue to keep it in place. Also works great to keep screws on the end of screwdriver when locating them in spots with poor access. We geezers have to be inventive as our eyes and other senses fade...
Cheers,
Joel

[S.J.Szabo]

Interesting dual-point thread: computers and 356 starters. Only on abcgt.

Mr.Mawbey:

Glad you got the bolt in. It's too late to help, but I have found that when manual dexterity won't suffice, a piece of tape will do most of the work well enough for installation of the holding bolt, and also forces one to keep a flat of the head against the starter body, a detail that enhances alignment going in.

And while the pinned head works well enough, necessity has taught me that reaching over the gearbox to seat a box-end that can be left lying on the case will hold well enough for one man to start and tighten the nut on the engine side (provided all threads are clean and lubed with WD-40), when the stud nut on the bottom is firmed up.

As for the original problem (slow hot start), I would inquire whether the pinion end bushing (in the edge of the bell housing) was replaced with the last end-bell bushing. One worn bushing on either end can allow enough mis-alignment to near-ground the rotor, a condition that is exacerbated by heat. It is my personal rule-of-thumb to always replace the bushes on both ends at the same time. One of these days, I will bore out the bell housing and install a bearing.

Other diagnostics - WinXP: I encourage you not to throw the baby out with the bath water. XP is still a very viable OS that will accommodate sufficiently recent programs to ensure simple and reliable operation. Win7 is O.K. and works most closely like XP, but is stupidly bloated and takes a newish chip to run it with any alacrity. Win8 is a bust on a stationary computer, and the hasty hash up that is Win8.xx still sucks, and is even more bloated than 7. But note that 7 and 8.xx both come in your choice of 32bit and 64bit processing. For an older machine, stick with 32bit.

For browsers, I would direct your attention to the open-source (and free) Mozilla line of browsers and email programs.

If you know the name of the worrisome executable, search for it in File Mgr. ("Explorer") to find it's location and associated program. One can then disable the .exe to see if it effects other operations. If not, you can try to disable the program in "Services", or if you dare, root it out of the Registry and then delete it altogether.

[roy mawbey]

Mr Szabo,

I replaced the bushing in the transmission bell housing around 4k miles ago. Did it using the stoddard extractor with the engine in place. Not easy but it worked. The other end bushing I believe to be still okay but I agree if that is worn it will allow the armature to drop. The faact my starter shaft tthat locates in the trans end had only 0.001" wear after 55 years made me happier when I checked it.

You guys are correct tips like super glue really do work my nut and washer has it on the end of the long bolt.
Also the wire from the starter to the ignition does not have a spade connector on my original solinoid. I changed the secuting screw for an allen screw easier to remove.

I chickened out of un-soldering the solinoid plate to gain access to the solinoid points. Thats maybe a mistake on my part we will see!!

Thanks guys

Roy

[roy mawbey]

Guys,

I can report back got the car running today in my drive. Turned the key and it churned over so fast it frightened the hell out of me. I have not yet driven it to see if the hot start is the same tomorrow I will see. I am really hoping. I can say I never remember it being so fast 45 years ago.

I just can't see why cutting back and then re-soldering the ignition wire on the solinoid and cleaning the other 2 wires on the solinod to the battery and regulator should make such a difference. I did clean the brushes and commutator but they are really not that dirty.

The other thing I noticed was the starting continued to turn the motor over longer than usual. I had the carbs off they were probably dry so the pump needed to fill them. It churned till it did!

I have always thought because the starter has a clutch that when the pinion reaches flywheel starting speed it cuts the power. I begin to think now my starter never reached the speed with the resistance being so poor on the green corroded copper wiring from the switch.

Anyway did take a photo of the wire after I cut it so will put it on the next mail. Must say I do wonder if it will make any difference on hot starting. Good or bad will report back.

Roy