"Casting Numbers...or...."

[Steve Heinrichs]

All,

Following up on my comment to Sebastian---I'll start a thread:

Here's the notion:

I think the vaunted "casting numbers" were not. I believe that just like with respect to the 4-cam motors, the generally five digit numbers on the pushrod case other side were stamped in after casting when Hans was assigned the job of building the motor. (It is also why early on, two letters like HK for Hans Klaus was stamped).

Later, when the motor was acceptable, etc. it got its P number.

That's my theory.

Steve Heinrichs

[Steve Heinrichs]

Justin,

Thanks!

Let's get technical/etc. questions here. The guys do care. There is much talent here or lurking and many do not care about the lawsuits or who shot John. Joris and Sebastian and many others have much to contribute. They are welcome here even if they have no opinion on how legal stuff plays out. If they want to know about that--there is another thread.

So--let's talk numbers.

Steve Heinrichs

[JTR70]

Thank you for getting this one going Steve. I wish I had something useful to contribute but motors are not my strong suit especially highly detailed topics on them like this one. I'll be interested in learning about it though. Justin

[JTR70]

Steve, Here are a few shots I took of a stray case I have here at my shop.







Only letter I could find was that "L" on top of this case half. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place? Justin

[Steve Heinrichs]

Justin,

Unfortunately I do not have info as to later motors but the 8xxxx may well be an internal number. And, while I do not recognize the 'L', it likely is the initial of builder. It would be great to see photos of earlier motors.

Steve Heinrichs

[JTR70]

oh, are you talking about two piece cases then?

[Steve Heinrichs]

80682 is what Pellow referred to as the casting number. I beleive it was the number assigned when,in this instance, 'L' was assigned to build it.

As to two or three piece, I dunno, exactly where stamped. I do think all Porsche built 356 motors as well as 4-cams had such "internal" numbers.

Steve Heinrichs

[S.J.Szabo]

As I am a prisoner of sorts to my own weaknesses, I have not delved into Mr.Pellow's past works to confirm, but I can't escape the feeling that there is some confusion (no doubt my own) about this subject.

It is my recollection that Mr.Pellow did some statistical work with what he termed "casting dates", a circle with some number code for dates, that was stamped into the casting core on all three pieces (and possibly the two pieces of early cases, but I wouldn't bet on this), and I can't help wondering if this is the source of the confusion.

After all, it is illogical to me to believe that any raw case would be touched out of sequence to receive a hand stamp for the date/sequence/identifier of its casting. We know (or can reasonably imagine) enough about the early life of an engine to realize that there was a very variable span of time between popping a blank out of the sand and the first stage of the machining process. In the interval, there was quality control that produced discards, storage, transport, more storage, and finally distribution at process stations that began with the machining of the case blanks into engine units.

This is the first real opportunity and need for hands-on contact and would be the first "point of need" to be able to identify a newly established engine unit. It is also the first opportunity to apply an identifier that you know for sure will not be machined out of existence.

Therefore, it is my personal surmise that this number is an assembly identifier that would be the engine's first step into the complicated ballet that was the build of a finished car.

So goes one fellow's opinion.

[Steve Heinrichs]

Mr. Szabo,

I am not entirely certain but what I think happened is this---

The case manufacturer/vendor delivered blank cases to Porsche. Blank as in no numbers. No "casting numbers". Nothing. (This may be why later blank cases have no such numbers).

When a motor was to be built, it was assigned to Hans. There was, I am told, a book with such listings.
At that time the "Internal Number" was stamped on and that motor was Hans' to get it done properly and/or later know who did what.

So, Hans finishes the motor and then, if ok, it gets a P number.

I do know this: Each 356 or 4-cam motor (well maybe not the very early VW ones) has an internal number specifically associated with it.

This is fun, no?

Steve Heinrichs

[Carrera_The_Kid]

Not having any cases nearby, perhaps someone can detail the following. Which distinct numbers can be found on the pushrod, 4-cam and transmission cases and what it the current hypothesis as of to the use of each of these numbers?

[Steve Heinrichs]

Joris,

See 17506.

Certainly each 4-cam and I believe most pushrods had these numbers. The good news for 4-cam folks is that we have now figured out which internal number goes with each 4-cam motor number. Said another way as we know, 4-cam motor numbers can be faked or changed....but...now it is possible by knowing what the internal number was, to determine if the motoris a fake (whether changed or stamped on a blank case).

Might save someone a couple hundred thousand dollars or more.

I believe the same system was used on pushrods---but that is another day.

Steve Heinrichs

[Steve Heinrichs]

Joris,

Just a little more...my hope is that with this effort and related ones...we can bring more stability and authenticity and value to the marketplace.

Steve Heinrichs

[Carrera_The_Kid]

Steve,

I see the use of these numbers in weeding out the real from fakes.

From a scholar perspective, I'd be interested to learn which numbers there are. From the top of my head I see the below numbers:

- engine type number. Purpose, to determine the engine configuration
- case serial number. Purpose, to distinguish distinct engines and relate these to distinct? cars
- Internal number, Purpose? internal invoicing and supplier warrantee claims?
- Case match numbers; Purpose, to identify case halves and front covers as being part of a machined set
- Builder initial stamp. Purpose, to beat the crap out of the builder in case they screwed up, just kidding

Best,

Joris

[Steve Heinrichs]

Joris,

I'd say that only two numbers matter:

The P number---that number, of course, tells one whether itis a 547 or 692 or 587 etc.

The "internal number"---on 4-cams: the one, two or three digit number on other case half.

/////

The case match stuff can be faked. The relationship between the P number and internal number cannot. This means that stamped blank cases or altered P numbers can be determined by reference to the lack of internal
number or wrong internal number. They cannot be guessed at.

Finally---a way to sort out the fakes.

Steve Heinrichs