Replacment bodies

[Steve Heinrichs]

Guys,

There is a thread on the Registry Forum about factory replacement bodies. It is not complete and not very helpful.

There were speifically numbered spare chassis used for specific purposes---some quite interesting and rare.

Brett Johnson, long ago, detailed the number ranges for these: 12xxx, 13xxx, and 5xxx series.

The upcoming book will detail each one.

I wonder why the fellow who asked about his car is being told it may not be real, etc?


Steve Heinrichs

[Steve Heinrichs]

OK, Iwent to Ebay and see that this is 13224.

Not a problem car really. 13224 was delivered 29 May 1962 to Reutlingen (Moritz) for customer Kraut (yes). It was a white 356B Cabrio T6 with not seats. With top. In consideration for 155686. Real car, real deal.
I have not checked anything re the motor.

Somewhat interesting is that this is the first spare number after a group that were "SKD" (complete knockdown) 356B T6 Cabrio substructures sent to South Africa.

So, Registry lurkers----maybe advise your fellow posters on the R Forum.

Steve Heinrichs

[JTR70]

Thanks Steve!
Very interesting, I have heard a little about these "replacement chassis" but that is sort of a misnomer isn't it?

In my mind this would constitute a "replacement chassis". However to "install" this into an existing damaged car would make no sense due to the incredible amount of hours in labor it would take to do the swap. So I think your description of a replacement "body" or "car" is more accurate. When this "swap" occurred the car could not have been around long enough to have rusted out so it was obviously bent or twisted too badly for the repair effort at that time. (today it would be an exceptional restoration candidate) So what would have been the protocol back then Steve? Contact the factory and they send you out a new body to plug your old drivetrain, trim and interior into? Justin

[Steve Heinrichs]

Justin/All,

It is confusing. The translated German is 'replacement chassis' but they really re not always that. In fact, these (all numbered) could be bare frames to complete cars (without the mechanicals, etc. added by Porsche.

They were used in many ways---testing of frames, and more, replacements for damaged/wrecked cars, test cars (some 4-cams). The numbers include the 901 test beds even though later ones may have repaired 356s, each Abarth was a 13xxx one....and much more.

To be honest, I did not want to list them all but decided to because they are part of the comprehensive 4-cam list...and...well, we decided it was cool to do so.

My hope is that it will help our hobby understand and properly evaluate these.

I hope, as well now, that some of the Registry folks watching here will invite their friends over here to see some straight forward answers and less instant conclusions that something must be amiss.

Steve Heinrichs

[Steve Heinrichs]

Sorry guys---I just cannot resist addressing the latest posts there:

The idea of parts numbers is wrong. Did not work that way for these. That is, I am not saying that one could not buy a part numbered conversion kit but that is not what these are. Moreover, where the "work" was done depended on the purpose. Some shells went to special customers like Blendl who built his own 4-cam car. Other stuff maybe was without glass, others were complete cars that actually went through production.

The stories are really fun.

Steve Heinrichs

[JTR70]

Steve, this topic and description reminded me of my old GM performance Parts catalog from '97

The general public (me included, before I saw the page above)would never assume you could buy a "NEW" vehicle in such a bare bone unfinished state from the manufacture. However just like your statement about the Abarth's all being "replacement chassis" the offerings from the GM catalogue above would more than likely be used as a race car or in a very rare instance be used to save a severely damaged street car like the Cabriolet on ebay. Is this an accurate comparison?

[Steve Heinrichs]

Yes, except that in Porsche's case---it was not advertised as such. Only special customers like Strahle and Blendl could do so. The use of the word replacement or bodies often do not fit, either. Take the Abrths for example...they were 13xxx chassis run through production without bodies and got mechanicals generally except the motors. Then they went to Abarth for the bodies and the motor was added. Sometimes a whole car was completed and finished with these "spares". Today, some cars have both numbers if they were "repaired".

Steve Heinrichs

[Steve Heinrichs]

Just so we are clear here especially for those of you following on the Registry Forum as well---

We never said here anything about the owner wanting to exchange one cab for another or a transaction to avoid taxes or registration.

The specifics were as earlier noted here and as now noted on the R Forum by Mike Smith.

The work was not done at the factory. It was not a "conversion". There are no part numbers per se for this stuff.

Steve Heinrichs

ps---at the Karmann re-dos referred to, I'd be pleased to know the chassis number and would try to look it up. First I have heard of this.

[Steve Heinrichs]

To Mark B. over on the R Forum:

Send me an email and we'll get in touch and I will look up the motor and trans data for youlate tomorrow.
Meanwhile, see my posts here about replacements and specifically where this one went.

Steve Heinrichs
RStephen356@aol.com

[JTR70]

Thanks Steve!

So access to these "replacement bodies" was very limited and reserved for only a few; not a standard offering to the general public. Here is the car and its certificate in question:



In your estimation who commissioned this re-body? A dealer request?
Thanks again! Justin

[Steve Heinrichs]

see my earlier post----it went to a dealer as noted.

Most likely the cab was damaged and the dealer got the 13xxx to repair. See the post for dealer name and customer name. The original car was silver; the replacement body was white.

Steve

[Steve Heinrichs]

Mike Smith, in his recent Registry post, is on point as usual. He is brilliant when it comes to 356 history.

Two small points to quibble with:

First, there were also 5xxx numbers in the same manner for Drauz and D'Iteren.

Second, whilst (see I can be a Brit) mostly or frequently, it is just as Mike says..... but often times these were used for other purposes---test cars, prototypes, stuff sent to South Africa, friends, Abarths, and other reasons.

If only we could get Mike to spell "authorized" with a 'z'.

Steve Heinrichs

ps--as Mike does imply/infer----it was all mostly not illegal, immoral or fattening.

ps 2---Mike would enjoy it here.

[Steve Heinrichs]

Well, good for Charlie on the other site. Everything got a part number, it seems.

Still, not so many of thee and----as you will see---most all were different---hold the glass, hold the wiring, hold the tomatos and lettuce. Maybe that all resulted in a "part number".

Anyway, you'll see each of them in the book---and "you make the call"

So, we are back to the car in question:

It is real and it is exactly as noted.

Steve Heinrichs

[bbspdstr]

Steve, I am not going to apologize for the lack of record-keeping even when we got a copy of the 'real' Kardex (for free)and not having history of matches and originality when more of such existed. You are now catching up with that oversight, so thank you.

However, we had 'Original Owners' in abundance 40 or more years ago, and their oral histories of the cars were quite credible, too.

Actually, the stories added to the fun and the fun was that the cars were...dare I remind the 356ers of today.... driven. They were just used sports cars, but that seems to be forgotten now. Carreras were cheap...as no one wanted to work on them. Now, that situation's 'better'?

That was the hobby part or the 'get to school or work' part for we who caught the obsession like a disease and graduated from VWs and had pushrod 356s. (And yes, I'll admit to wanting a time machine now!)

The numerical fixation is fairly recent. Maybe it's appropriate due to what guys like me are trying to make 'like new' by using whatever is available. It is not a far fetch to 'build a new 356 around a chassis number' and that chassis will include various donor parts and a heap of repro stampings that cannot be found on a CoA or even a Kardex or build sheet...but that seems to be OK if it is fairly unintelligible...as that's called a "restoration."

When it was done by the Factory, it was 'rebodying'.....uh-o-o-oh! Bad Carma? Hurting the 'value'? Gimmee a break... Here's a hint: no one knows about a 'history' one way or another above 50 mph.

It seems odd that a big fuss is made over eBay ads on the Registry site, but a ratty crashed rusted (but 'real') Speedster with a Coupe 'clip' for a front end and dozens of repro parts can still bring $200k...and no one says boo other than a reporter with a magnet-meter who finds too much filler everywhere on every car at auction.

Is this proof of evolution? What is being proven is that the 356s that the Porsche accountants expected and wanted to be just a memory replaced by a new Porsche auto by now have become 'collectible' icons of a more 'fun' time. It's why we have no more 'parts cars' because even those have become 'restoration candidates.'

[Steve Heinrichs]

Bruce,

I think your comments are an excellent analysis of how this has all evolved or, perhaps, devolved.

My involvement since about 1972 has certainly seen in the last 20 years or so an increased focus on chassis numbers and "restorations" from dataplates or less.

Part of my effort in this regard is to help level the playing field so that people can understand what they have and evaluate it properly. Too many guys have too many secret lists of secret stuff in my view.

The "replacement" (more than that in fact) are just one facet. 12223 actually became the first Speedster 80001, for example. I was troubled by the negativity as to the 13xxx car on ebay. Seems to me that these are all fine Porsches.

So, there will be much heartburn as well as we try to note the rebodied 904s, the actually destroyed 550As and much more and note that one is cut up and buried with the pilot killed in racing it and note that a little frame plate is not the basis for a real car. It will all be fun to watch.

The 12xxx and 13xxx and 5xxx cars may get some respect.

Also, speaking of numbers and part numbers, Ithink it did not work as described on the Registry site. That is, there was no catalog to order from. This was "bespoke" stuff as the Brits say. An order was placed for what was needed---to repair, to replace, for test---whatever. Then Reutter made whatever and it was shipped and invoiced. As a part of the Germanic culture---a "part number" was created for what was sold. So, it is not like the part number referred to over there represented inventory. It was the number assigned after the "part" was made.

Anyway, thanks, Bruce for reminding us how far the hobby has drifted from fun old cars to high sought objects of art. Not good in many ways. Important to me given that, that more than just a few with secret information can play in at least some of the new game.

Steve Heinrichs

ps--as to the latest 13xxx noed on the Registry site---someone will need to buy the book. Back to 904 mysteries now....